tv Consider This Al Jazeera December 17, 2013 9:00am-10:01am EST
parts of the 9/11 report nine years after published. two dozens pages are classified and raise questions over whether the 19 hijackers received state-sponsored report. 19 were centre the saudi arabia, should they be concerned about having a push to have the information released. >> are the n.s.a.'s days of crushing gun control reports numbered. >> the changing face of the office party. some companies are giving cash parties. >> and why does bill gates want to change the way you eat breakfast. >> we begin with edward snowden. a federal government ruled that documents ruled are likely conu conunconstitutional.
is the ruling an anomaly. edward snowden may have had brief hopes of returning to the u.s. after the official who ran the task for proposed amnesty for the leaker if he returned data. that was squashed by the white house. the n.s.a. official warned the trove of documents was a goldmine for our enemies. for more we are joined by faiza patel, the co-director of the liberty and national security at the brennan center, and we are joined by jim walsh, an international security expert at mit security studies program and security consultant for al jazeera america. and joins us from watertown. the ruling by a judge, the ruling of all that information, who we are calling is likely to be a violation of the fourth amendment. other judges sided with the n.s.a. in the past. how
likely is this to be the rule going forward or is this just an outlier. >> i think the fourth amendment jurisprudence, your call records was a little in flux. we have a court ruling from the secret court which approved the surveillance, and they found it to be constitutional. they relied on a 1970s case from the supreme court called fish versus maryland, finding a single pen register that recorded phone numbers recorded over a period of days was constitutional. the judge found that ruling doesn't apply when you look at the program running over years and years and years and is not picking up one person's information. it's picking up millions. >> despite being authorised by the courts. >> the ruling was not directly
in front of the court. but the court was able to do an independent constitutional on whether the 215 metadata program was constitutional. >> richard leon said in his ruling: >> jim, how intrusive is it really? the information is out there. telephone companies have it. the irs has more information than the phone records will give anyone. >> yes, and no. there are all sorts of entities that collect information. in the private corporate world, a lot of that is given vol tarely. it's not only a privacy issue,
it's a public of abuse. when governments know what you are talking to, or the phone numbers you are calling or your children are calling. and can track her movements. that's a potential for abuse, a potential for blackmail. folks say that would never happen. i have two words. richard nixon, who used private information to blackmail. i think this is troubling, i know that other folks collect data, but not to the extent that n.s.a. does. it's an issue of scope, duration, holding it for years and years without regulation, and transparency, that we didn't know it happened year after year this will the revelations. >> the judge concluded that the searches in getting the metadata was unconstitutional because in part there is no proof that it prevented any terrorism.
why would esso case of a policy have anything to go with whether it was constitutional. >> the fourth amendment projects us against upreasonable searches and seize jurs -- seizures, how do you know. you have to look at the interest. the interest weighs heavily. for the dutch to look at the government's national security claim, and subject them to robust review, he found that they actually didn't hold up to scrutiny, that the three cases that the government had sided, in support of its claim that this program was necessary fell apart from close examination. >> now, we know about the program, the n.s.a. program thanks to edward snowden. edward snowden weighed in and says that the judge vindicated him.
this summer glen green walled talked about the fact that edward snowden had enough -- glenn greenward talked about the fact that showed had enough information, but he won't, he wanted to just warn people about the private information that the n.s.a. was gathering. most security officials, including you, jim, is that he has caused serious damage. how much else could he have, and how many damage could he cause. >> some of that language is commaj rated. some of it was exaggerated. there has been damage done. weighing costs and benefits. clearly there are - i think we are all in agreement that we are happy now that we know this is a
problem. why do i say that? we have the chair woman of the senate intelligence committee saying there are problems and the president himself while decrying snowden welcomes the national conversation. you don't have a national conversation, unless there's a link. has it done damage, yes, it has. is there future damage. yes, there may be. absent any of this, we wouldn't have known f it. i think the american public and problem. >> you are not clear how much he has. there's no question that the n.s.a. would like to know what he has and would like to get it back. rick, who runs the task force talked on 60 minutes about how he'd offer amnesty if he give everything back. >> my personal view is it's worth having a conversation about.
i would need assurances that the remainder of the data could be assured. my bar would be high. assurances. >> if he's saying that, don't you think the white house and bosses should listen of. >> it's remarkable. it's a 60 minute interview >> the bosses of the white house said no amnesty. >> maybe it's a trial balloon. it gives edward snowden an opening to perhaps come back. it's hard to know what is going on. it's a disciplined white house or agency. they don't talk to reporters. i am sure they were prepared for the interview and prepared for the question. that has to be something more than just one guy speaking. >> this story keeps on bringing up all sorts of issues. appreciate you coming in to talk
about the use tonight. >> the n.s.a.'s terrorist surveillance program was implemented to intercept al qaeda communications. the american public was told al qaeda carried out the attacks alone with no state sponsors. 28 payments of report are classified. did saudi arabia assist the 9/11 hijackers? joining us is jamie reno, a correspondent at the international business times who has been covering the story for years and interviewed two congress men pushing to get the classified session of the report public. he joins us from san diego. and the author of a vanity fair article. "house of bush, house of sword",
the secret relationship between the powerful dine assies. jamie, why is this coming up now. it talks about a specific sources of foreign support for the 19 hijackers. 15 are saudis, you covered it. what do you know about what is reporting. >> i don't know what's in it, but i can tell you from a number of congressional sources that i have talked to over the years, basically it illuminates the financial connections between the 9/11 hijackers, the sawedy government, and those living in san diego and those connected to the hijackers and the government. it puts a sharper focus on support given
to the hijackers , and the saudis in other cities around the country. >> given all the reporting you have done, going back 12 years, does it surprise you. >> it doesn't surprise me at all. it's a cover up. when i started on it, there was massive circumstantial evidence that the saudis were behind it. it was not revealed. they've been classified ever since. now there's more circumstantial evidence and it's good to see the issue is still alive. the question is why has there been a cover up, will it come out now >> given the importance of this, that this has not come out. it it's classified. it's hard to get someone that has red it. the senator and chairman of the
senate intelligence committee, bob gram was pretty honest about what was in there. >> the 28 pages is who financed 9/11. saudi arabia represented 15 of the is the hijacksers and terms of their country of nationality. it would not be a stretch to suggest that some portion of their financial report and expensive activity, such as taking flight lessons that they undertook came from sources that origin. >> he's been clear. you spoke with gram, and he told you that he was convinced the saudi arabia government was involved. the saudi arabia without question supported the hijackers living in san diego.
he's basically saying the saudis financed the hijackers. this? >> it's confounding, i've been the sanddi ago correspondent for years. it's an unanswered mystery. it's good that they are finally coming back to this now. a bipartisan effort to get the 28 pages declassified so that the american public can find out. it doesn't answer all the questions, the 28 pages. clearly it tells us more that america deserves to know. >> lee hamilton, the vice chairman who authored the report said they went to saudi arabia, they investigated and did not find hard evidence linking the hijackers to the saudi government. you have to look at the context. the bush family was close personally and
politically to the royal family. prince bandar was close personal friends with george w. bush senior and he was bone as bandar bush, and they had business dealings in the carlisle group. saudi arabia was an ally. we relied on them for oil, revealing the saudi connection would have been explosive and damaging to both the saudis and the bush administration. >> banda was a popular guy, speaking english beautifully, there are reports that money me may have sent from people that supported the hijackers. senators led by chuck schumer demanded that it be declassified, saying protecting the saudi arabia regime for for given to terrorists would be a mistake. do you think that the issue is that it's circumstantial evidence that's not enough to
pin a sponsor of terrorism on the saudi state? >> you know, i have to believe if saudi arabia were not an alply, we would have found more reason to suggest it was a state sponsor terrorist attack. i think there is plenty of evidence, some circumstantial evidence. but it adds up to the least, members of the saudi arabia government were supporting the hijackers or supporting these men i told you about from saudi arabia. those living in the united states. there's clearly is a connection. whether it was a state sponsored, you know, terrorism act, we may never know that, but we do know that there were direct connections, and financial links and, you know, that alone - that sort of begs the question why have we not gotten to the bottom of that. there's so many unanswered questions, i've been trying to
find out the answers. it's, like i said, we are seeing congressional turnaround here. bipartisan support for looking into this. senator bob gram wants to reopen the 9/11 investigation. that would be a good idea. will it happen? it's unlikely. you and your book focus on the saudi airlift where saudis, including members of the bin laden family were taken out of the states within days because of fears for their security. do you think there was anything involved that those people may have been involved in supporting the terrorists? >> if they weren't involved, even in the most ordinary murder, you investigate a lot of people who are not guilty. you entergait the relatives of suspects, and here you had dozens of relatives of the bin laden family, and it's amazing
they were not detained and seriously interrogated in terms of their relationships. it's a slippery slope. jamie is right in terms of getting hard evidence that a lot of saudis give massive amounts, especially the billion airs, give mass ist amounts to charities. some of those go to al qaeda. >> as we found out, many were put on the terrorist list was of where they were sending their money. i know that the congress men are hoping the pages will be classified. i know they said it's about relationships and shouldn't stay classified. we'll stay on top of it. good to have you guys with us. >> coming up nelson mandela is laid to rest. we'll get memories of the man by someone who fought alongside him
and fought with him. harmela aregawi is tracking stories on the web. >> stereotypes about pot smokers might be true. more coming up. what do you think. join the conversation: >> an america tonight exclusive. mortgage fraud. how one woman spoke up and made a difference. >> i had seen a couple of the girls making up documentation at a copier.
>> nelson mandela has been laid to rest in qunu. before a small gathering of world leaders, friends and family. the ceremony marked the end of 10 days of mourning and celebration of the life of one of history's important figures. we are joined by morgan radford, a guest of the family at nelson mandela's burial on sunday. i know that you have had tremendous personal experience over the past 10 days, including being invited by the mandela family to the burial family. how did you become so close with the mandela family?
>> when i graduated from harvard i came to south africa on a fellowship. i lived in durban and johannesburg. i travelled with a member of the family to meet nelson mandela, and jacob zuma. we met family members, stayed in touch and became close. >> we heard from heads of states, and heard the public views. what is it like to be personally. >> this has been an incredible moment in history to be a part of. on a personal level it's sad. the most moving part of the ceremony, and where it hit me. the gravity of what i witnessed is when you saw nelson mandela's casket, followed by the men who were his grandsons, born to his son, and they followed the
casket and walked it, draped in the south african flag, and walked their grandfather to his grave, there's no other word to describe it. it was sad. >> pictures were beautiful. very sad. >> how is the nelson mandela family dealing with the loss? >> they are doing about as well as anyone can do under the circumstances. i know that every family member i spoke to was very much looking forward to today. today is the day that the blockades are lifted around the perimeters of their home in qunu and johannesburg, and they are ready to begin a private mourning process. their moment of grief was property of the state, if not the world. now is the time they are feeling like, "look, we can be a family and be together and experience this." it has been a worldwide mourning and celebration. i am sure it needs its own time. did anything strike you in
particular among the things you heard yesterday reflecting back on nelson mandela's life. >> absolutely. some of the people before and after the burial shared personal testimonial - some funny, some sad. sir richard branson said, "he called me every day on my bard." it was the same day as his birthday. a former apartheid said, "he called me when i had prostate cancer and said, "i know what you're going through and what you feel." and the moments of reaching out. and his grant son, when he was freed, he said, "look, this is where my grandfather taught me how to be a man. he was my protector, going from a dismrin airian to a gentle guide.
i began to hear a picture, a robust picture of the man emerge from spending time with these people who spent a lot of time with him. >> we have seen some controversy. we saw jacob zuma booed at the public ceremony last tuesday. archbishop desmond tutu who was a close friend of nelson mandela, and a fighter with nelson mandela for the tearing down of apartheid. there were questions as to whether he was invited to the funeral and didn't come until the last minute. all showed tensions within the african national congress. where does south africa go from here. people are saying that his legacy will be preserve served. are people worried that the divisions may create problems? >> this is a moment of redefinition for south africa, but as you can see through south
africa's history, its triumph almost always comms after tragedy. this case is no different. a lot of people i spoke to, including former president mbeke, and others, they are saying a lot of south africa's work needs to be continuing to fulfil mandela's legacy. you heard barack obama sounding critical saying, "look, the world is revelling in nelson mandela's legacy. peep don't want to put in a mooedy come. people i spoke to says number one needs to revitalize south africa's economy. this has one of the sharpest discrepancies between the rich and the poor in the world. it's a time to put the economy back on track and make it egal it airian.
aid was an issue, and something that south africa needs to work on. decitying mattizingates. his grandson told me so many children are orphaned, like me. this is something we need to work on in terms of his legacy, and the ambassador from the u.s. said the same thing, there's work to be done, and we are doing it step by step. >> a lot of challenges. nelson mandela's legacy, example and words lead the way. morgan radford, we appreciate you joining us tonight. >> any time. >> we are joined by a man with a unique perspective on the life of nelson mandela, golled fought along -- golled denis goldberg fought alongside nelson mandela, he was tried and released after 22 years behind bars. us.
there's a little delay between ourselves and south africa. you said that you do not believe nelson mandela should be seen as a saint or saviour. that is how the world sees him. as someone that knew nelson mandela, how do you think he would like to be remembered? >> first, i greet you and thank you for inviting me. sympathy to the family. can we leave them alone for a bit to mourn. in the lime light it must be painful. how do i see nelson mandela. inspirational. he made mistakes. he said so. a collective leader. found new ways, a deep thinker, intellectual and a man of action, and warm-heart, man who called me boy, because i a was
so much younger than him, and fond memories and inspirational memories for a country. i listened to the discussion about his legacy. a lot much young people don't know the period as american kids don't know about world war ii or richard nixon, for that matter. this is it the work we have to do. 20 years to solve the problems of 350 years of racial oppression is asking a bit much of our country. it will take generations, and we have to keep going at it as our ambassador said. >> how did you get involved with nelson mandela and the african national congress. you were a civil member. what led you to join the fight against
apartheid. >> a sense of injustice i had during the spanish civil war, world war ii, seeing people fight for their freedom behind the lines, finding them heroic, and we were fighting nazi racism in europe and practicing at home. i did not want to be an oppressor. how did i get involved. in a nonracial youth organization. we worked with the african national congress, followed policies, argued and took part in the campaign for the freedom charter, which ends with a statement that these freedoms we'll fight for side by side, all our lives until we won our liberty. i believe that whites are still
not free from the effect of the racism of apart side. we still have to, as nelson mandela said, not only freeze of oppressed but the oppressor. so i got involved. once i was deeply involved, i'm an engineer. what was it like. it was lonely in the white community and warm in the comradeship. african national congress >> you were the only white man convicted alongside nelson mandela. >> in that particular trial yes, but the lead lawyer was convicted and died in prison. plenty die the in the struggle, enough to know ours was nonracial struggle for a nonracial south africa. >> how different was nelson mandela after released from prison, compared to the man he was when you worked with him
back in the early 1960s? >> i found him consistent. worked through the inside in his famous speech, the one against white domination and black domination, wanted to live to see a society where he could live in harmony and was prepared to die for the belief. it was consistent. in the manifesto of the spirit of the nation he said in effect we'll fight to show we can take power, but we'd prefer to negotiate a political settlement. took 30 years for the apartheid government to be prepared to negotiate. much the man that called for the struggle called it off.
he came out more mellow, but that came from being in prison. when you have time to reflect, plenty of time to reflect, years and years, and to refine the meaning of being non-racist. he came out at a time when thousands of people were killed by the out of control apartheid security forces. we had to find a way to stop the killing. and that's what we did. how did he change didn't change his principles. they were fixed over 40 or 50 years, he found whiches of implementing them in a way that persuaded us that it was right. that was the nrt of the
leadership. >> you visited nelson mandela in july. what did he say, expressing concerns about the future of south africa. i visited him in hospital where he hung on to life terribly week and a chateau of his former robust self. he was unable to speak but responded to me when i spoke to him. in the few minutes i was with him at the request of his wife graca machel, it was a time of bringing warmth and support and feeling draet fully sad. i wanted to remember the strong
upright tall inspirational leader. he clearly was fighting for his life and i said then what is fighter he is. but in the end the body is weaker than the mind. what was it like? i'm filled with sadness. will he be replaf. we'll find a way forward. we have brilliant people. nelson mandela, in my view was a rear person and we have a lot of rare people and leaders around him, together with him. he may have been the greatest among the great. we don't have great leaders. what they did was mobilise millions of team to bring our freedom. people have brought the freedom
with leaders leading them. >> i'm glad you had a final visit. we express our deepest condolences for the nation. we appreciate you joining us. >> time to see what is trending on al jazeera's website. aregawi. >> a study out of north western universityie shows how damaging smoking marijuana can be to a brain. they found irregularities on the part of the brain that dealt with working memories, the ability to process the information and transfer to long-term memory. the younger they was, the more the memory was impacted. the abnormalities was found, which suggests long-term effects of use.
>> disco gym is buying it. it's more propaganda. it's seen differently. not only does it affect long-term memory but affects the development. you can see more at the website. >> straight ahead the n.r.a. blocked gun control laws after newtown. is it power on the decline. the traditional office party is changing. why your normal december night out with folks from accounting could turn in all-expenses paid
a piece in the new york intoinga zone shows it was willing to back some legislation before reversing course. let's ask robert draper who wrote the piece, he's a contributor to the "new york times" magazine. the country devastated when 20 kids and six teachers killed at sandy hook. 92% of americans supported background checks. passed? >> it comes down to a gap in intensity to the people that support background checks, but don't consider it a voting issue, and those that don't want legislation passed relating to gun safety for fear it will be a slippery salt. i think ultimately the reason the bill didn't pass was not about
policy. the senator asked, "what can i do to mick the bill palatable. >> right after newtown it was new york center chuck schumer, the point person, and you telt the story about how he was talking to joe manchin and he said he didn't know anyone with a gun growing up, and joe manchin said he didn't know anyone who didn't. >> is it a massive divide in urban areas and blue states to don't realise how big a part guns have in american lives and other parts of the country. >> there's character, where you find that people steeped in gun culture. where there's some involvement.
people in urban areas don't get. that is why you see in blue states reliable supporters of gun safety laws. in a couple of states it's problematic for legislature to promote it. >> joe manchin took over the process. he got departments to support the bill or something they normally wouldn't have, because while it did include background checks, it allowed dealers to sell guns, something the n.r.a. likes. the military and their families can purchase guns in the state they are borned and stationed and importantly it would ban a national gun registry. the slippery slope. something that they are strongly against. why did the n.r.a. back out of the deal.
>> there's some approacheses. there wouldn't be a bill on universal background deals. a lot can't read the atmosphere. it's in the wake of elementary. >> joe manchin a west virginia conservative was widely enough to remember the value of that. he was glad to see them in and the bill have a lot of things that the n.r.a. asked for. the definition of a gun show. ultimately significant as well. >> most people think of the n.r.a. as a group that can't be challenged with millions of members. when they were talking, you bring up the facts that smaller extreme gun groups than
pressured the n.r.a. in a similar way to the way the tea party pulls to the right and make enough noise that they carry the day. the n.r.a. feels the responsibility. meaning being involved in the process, getting things done. getting things done in the capital means compromise. it's a talking point to say never ever compromise. smaller fringe like groups make money off of saying, "we are the ones that will never compromise gun groups, and will compromise in the back groups. that's why in early april the lobbyists negotiated, the gun owners and americans with gun rights sent out emails to their members and n.r.a. members saying, "stop doing this. they'll compromise away your gun rights.
it's something that moved the n.r.a. to pull out of negotiations." >> despite that 74%. n.r.a. members approved background checks. the n.r.a. is facing a battle against time, because households with one or more guns dropped by 30% over the past 35 years. so do you think the n.r.a. will lose at least the universal background check battle in the not too distant future. >> there are some n.r.a. officials with home i spoke. who believe that this was a good opportunity for them, that mannion and toomey lauded the bill with many measures, that the next time around - god forbid there be a tragedy such as this, but unfortunately it's likely there will be, the public
mood may be that there'll be no friendly bills. you can definitely make the argument that there were missed opportunities on both sides. >> do you think anything will happen in the immediate future. we saw the navy yard shooting, which was tragic and involved shooting. if the shooting deaths of 20 elementary schools didn't make else? >> we'll have to see through the next couple of electoral cycles. in 2014 a couple of senators, mary lander, and kay hagen from north carolina, if they reveil, people might say, "maybe there's not that much of a price to be paid for gun safety legislation" conversely if they come up for re-election, two republicans voting against or on the fence for a while. if this should prove to be a voting issue, if people come out in droves there'll be a sea
change. it will take that, visible evidence that it's okay to buck the n.r.a., invisible evidence that it's not okay to vote down sincible gun safety. >> robert draper, thank you for joining us. >> so much for partying with co-worker. holiday office parties are shifting in ways that could surprise you, and why your breakfast plate could change soon. bill gates is among those leading the charge.
in the wake of 9/11, the number of holiday office parties plunged, estimating varied wildly, but they could have dropped. holiday hearts are rebounding with the economy, but many companies are looking at new strategies. some are giving the workers a few hundred dollars for spending sprees, with the rule being they have to spend it on themselves. another company took their workers on an all-expenses cruise to mexico. officer managers are choosing activities, including painting lessons over regular parties, because they feel the person to person contact is better for team morale. holiday parties are impacted by real-world issues. after hurricane sandy wall street firms cut back. that has changed. 91% of investment firstly surveyed said they'll hold one this year. it's up 17% since 2011.
>> what came first, the chicken or the egg? if bill gates and the founders of paypal have their way, it doesn't matter. some of the products of hampstead food will introduce alinterpret tifs. it could be the future of food production. i'm joined by josh tetrick, ceo and founder of hampton creek food. there are plenty of non-meat alternatives out there right
now. what will makours different? >> we don't thing of what we do as an alternative, but the thing. back in the day we had gas lights lighting our homes, before that candles. when electricity was introduced it was called the gas light substitute, the al-tern tif. we think we cap win and make it sustainable by making something radically affordable and delicious. that's how we make a better world. you have big names, including bill gates. according to the associated press $350 million was invested in food-related start-ups by tech venture capitalists. what kinds of products are you offering to get the guys interested in this industry? >> well, it's interesting when investors,
innovators like bill gaits and peter till, when they look at the world of agriculture and see 1.8 trillion eggsar laid and 99% come from chickens packed body to body and they look at that and say that is crazy. it's horse and buggy style. they are looking for technology to jump over that nolle prosequi sense. technology that feeds the world. that's why you are seeing all this excitement among investors, who are savvy. >> you have a mayon ace out there with no eggs in it. what other products do you hope to come up with? >> so we want to go after the markets in which the chicken egg plays. a scrambled egg, omelettes, cookies, cooky dough, cakes - about a third of all the conventional eggsened up as
ingredients. we'll release products to address that. next is a product eat the dough, a cookie dough, and the next one just scramble, the world's plant-based scrabbled egg. >> how close is the taste to the real thing. is that what you are aiming for? you don't mean it to be an alternative, you want something that tastes good. >> depend what we talk about. our mao, we want it to be the best in the world. most of the times, it does. the cookie dough we want it better than egg-based cookie dough and, "oh, by the way you can eat it." the scramble we want it to be affordable. we are about how do we get better, more sustainable, taste is good or better. a lot more affordable. that's how we build a better food system.
>> we reached out to the egg nutrition system that sent a statement saying: >> will the products you come up with match that. >> sounds like cigarette couples 30 years ago. it's important when we look at what is synthetic and what is not. look at the reality of what we are talking about, when we talk about a chicken egg. the reality is not old mcdonald had a farm.
it's with 99" of them come from are chick eps grammed in small cages in spaces so small they can barely move, never flap their wings and require water and fertiliser, requiring a lot of oil. >> that is reality. our reality which is important to identify is we work with plants that grow in open fields. plants like yellow peas that grow in canada, or sorgan. we have to say farmers in canada or the midwest would thing that sorgan or the yellow peas is synthetic. we always make sure there's a issues. >> we have 45 seconds left. we do want to bring up the environmental issue. >> it's a big part of it, not the fact that the animal is caged. there's environmental benefits.
>> 18%. greenhouse gas emissions come from an equal animal culture. when you have chickens crammed into cages so small it requires energy inputs. you have local and global water and airpollution. we think you can do it better, sustainably, in a way that is affordable, aligning with people's values and supporting the environment, instead of degrading it. >> we'll keep track of your efforts josh tetrick, thanks for joining us. >> the show may be over, but the conversation continues on the website. you can find us on twitter at aj "consider this". see you next time.
>> announcer: this is al jazeera. ♪ >> hello and welcome to the news hour. tanks are ordered on to the streets of south sudan's capitol and dozens are dead after what the government is calling an attempted coup. and syria forces carry out air raids for the third day in a row. i'm here from london, and